Board Thread:Plants vs. Zombies 2/@comment-18464102-20180905042224/@comment-27248259-20181114164134

TheGollddMAN wrote: The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote: The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote: The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote: The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: TheGollddMAN wrote:

The Determined Mine wrote: Han0303 wrote: Swaggy Shooter wrote:

"Witch Hazel in that mod costs 400 at lvl one ( cuz she actually transforms zombies into solar tomatoes). When upgraded to lvl two she has faster firing rate, but she costs 525 sun to balance it." That seems... kind of... overkill.

125 sun for faster firing rate? Kinda hard to plant it then, don't you think?

I still dont see anything called mastery taking effect. you're forgetting to ask the question of "how much faster" Okay then "how much faster" 30 secs -> 26 secs? and its PF can pretty much one shot any zombie (5000 -> 7000) AND make another witchhazel? So a 4 second reduction in favor of a 125 sun cost bump. The way you made it sound in your previous reply, I was expecting something more honestly.

Are YOU Eclise? Also do you have any video that showcases the leveling system for all plants from vanilla to max in this mod. I want to see that before I try this mod. there's a lot more to account for - slower levels means some plants become better.

and no I don't. sorry. I do have preview videos here so you can see the power level of some plants.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdHGpHjKMIYScOi1BmGkFkhT4BOiZYfRG (Note - some plants have been changed slightly since then) What do you mean by "slower levels"? remake every single level to be slower. (yes, even BWB) Okay then.

Anyway, how do you upgrade plants in this mod? Also what is the max? No EXP - just coins. 3 levels for each plant, can be reverted (finite attempts... but probably people won't reach that point) Finite attempts? Huh? playing the mod explains that more properly... essentially, you can revert tier for the plants, but you have a limited number of reverts (although probably no one will revert that much)

here's Banana leveling chart for example. you can see a few more plants, if you want.

Huh, I'll skip. your call. Well the core concept of upgrading is that, well, you're UPgrading (hence the term). These level ups (again UP) feel more like downgrades if it takes a plant 2000 sun cost just for the argument of "balancing" (which it isn't). Hence I am passing this. to be fair it's one plant. not all plants will be like this. and you can choose to not move to next tier (NOT upgrading), or revert it if you don't like it.

and to be fair, mathematically it's a GOOD trade value-wise. and in-game? it's better to judge it once you learn how to use it. If the mechanic is there then why won't I upgrade it? But this mechanic will punish me if I do it (whther or not it's for one plant) by giving me a plant that gets a handicap after supposedly "evolving" it.

And no, it's not a good value trade wise as the negatives are outweighing the positives. On top of that yuo said something about finite attempts which I am guessing is how many times you can upgrade and revert back. well, still, your call. personally (and no I did not design this, I help with the coding for the guy) the balance is on point most of the times, and it's far more interesting to have a risk-reward system compared to the linear i'm-gonna-kill-everything-stupidly-quick system. You took the meaning of "risk and reward" the wrong way as the risk is more than the reward. If you guys really like balancing, then the scales should be in the middle, and not tipped in favor of one or the other.

Also you just admitted that your balance is on-point "most of the times" meaning it has to be reworked for the ones it isn't (seriously, 2000 sun cost?). how can you seriously know the risk will outweigh the reward just by looking, then? like, check this for example. will you say the change is bad, or good?

and the ones that isn't, well, constant balance changes are a thing.

as mentioned before, 2000 sun doesn't seem to be a lot if, in 6 normal waves, you generate enough sun to get 6-7 winter melons (lv 1) in vanilla. and not to mention, slower levels mean even more time to prepare.

and I did say that you can choose not to, or revert. a lot of different strategies for each person; no one will play in the same way. Lol, how can I not see the obvious? Of course the change is bad, a .4 sec shot cooldown in favor of a 125 sun cost increase from level 2 to level 3 for Kernel-pult. How is that remotely a good balancing? In vanilla I can get 6-7 Winter melons for 2000 sun while here I can use only one Banana Launcher with a 70 second seed packet cooldown. Anyone looking at these pcitures can easily figure where this balancing has gone wrong. Doesn't matter the damage increase as then there's a 30 second shot cooldown as well.

Just because there is a revert mechanic (which again is finite which sucks) doesn't mean the obvious; either you upgrade and deal with the "risk" system or don't upgrade and get stuck with vanilla plants. Yes, totally better than what PopCap's system offers. As a fan project, this was supposed to be better than the official leveling system but the more I see these, the more it convinces me that this leveling system needs an overhaul with PROPER balancing in mind.

Yes, this system has balancing but not in a proper way. It's balancing in name only. you've just said that kernel II/III, one of the BEST plant tiers in the mod, is trashy.

welp, in the end, your choice. I know it's my choice but you're saying as if it's globally renowned as being "supreme". Here's the thing: the risk after upgrading is outweighing the rewards. I am not the kind of person to just say it's bad. I can provide constructive criticism because to my eyes the balancing is off but it depends on how well you or the modder take it. I never outright said it's trash, I am seeing good in this system but the negatives are more apparent; that's my point. You can increase sun cost or seed packet cooldown but not to the point where a player has to think whether he has to revert back or deal with it. That's not how balancing or the upgrade mechanic in general works. The mechanic must not initimidate the players into not upgrading by making them turn away; the system has to be attractive to the player while keeping the plant not overpowered.

Again, there is constructive criticism to be had but if you're just gonna infer it just as "he called it trashy", then that's your call. there's constructive critism from someone who does play the mod, and from someone who doesn't and just bases their conclusion on "linear" thinking, saying that 1.5s to 1.1s shot cooldown is the same as 7.0s to 6.6s shot cooldown, or that 1000 sun for infinite smaller cherry bombs is too much for the 50 sun sunflower is producing, or the fact that the entire game changes, from the levels to the zombies. but it's alright. Well whatever floats your boat. I can see from your reply that you don't take criticism into account unless someone plays the mod when the same thing can be inferred from the pictures (observation is the key to decision making) and will justify it no matter what since you're part of it. Funny how you're accusing me of basing my conclusion on "linear" thinking when you're also doing the same.

But NVM, I am done with this particular discussion. "the same thing can be inferred from the picture" "observation is the key to decision making" alright then. because simply observing that 2000 sun is simply too much (especially for a night world/ zombie spam) without actually giving it a test drive is a valid way of making an argument.

and contrary to your belief, I do argue with the guy from time to time about plants being out of balance (mostly because they are way better than expected, like KERNEL III.)

and linear thinking? sure, maybe, but at the end of the day I'm still the one who has tested it on an actual level, while your observation are still calculation and guesswork.

but yeah. I'm done for now. I guess people like the linear leveling more than good experimentation, then.

by the way? Damage Pierce is just "extra damage". Fine then, I will install the mod. But here's a million dollar question: What if I still say the same things after playing it. Will your "good experimentation" (now that's a laugh) still stand then? Or will you just come up with another excuse to justify this thing?

Let's see if my guesswork is actually valid or not because in most cases, what I guess does become a fact (the recent guess being on point with mastery and many other past updates regarding this game and other games on other forums). we'll see then... if you still think like that you can then legitimately give a complaint. you do realize that you're not the only one who has addressed the system right? and that he actually does balance changes corresponding to those complaints, if they are valid?

but "good experimentation"? laughable? I don't beat so many custom levels down without experimenting. for god's sake the guy doesn't go in without testing everything. that's where experimentation comes in. it's our method of working, and it hasn't failed us yet.

the 1.2 update isn't released yet, anyhow. you are gonna have to wait. in the meantime - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3cYbZtx8sFppXznKCe8lf0KGjCRMfZPB so you can get a better view. No, I don't realise any of that nor that I am not the first one to say negative things. Why? Because I never bothered to look into it until I saw this ad here but what I do realise that you don't understand that there's both sides to a debate. There are many things you can easily infer as bad or good just by looking at it. Not always is it required to experiment. Experimentation lets you understand it deeply but on the surface you can still get a good picture if you have a good perception (which I do as stated above)

Anyway, when the hell is this 1.2 gonna release. I want to download it when he has changed around stuff latest. That way I can experiment it (as per your logic) and really see if his latest changes hold up or not. Plus I have 7.0.1 installed. so you believe that your guesswork is always, 100%, correct fine then.